Newbie comments
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Started by: Kathylynn (guest)
On: 1266800646|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Number of posts: 24
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Summary:
Nice app! Here are my suggestions.
Newbie comments
Kathylynn (guest) 1266800646|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I bought your app today primarily because I wanted a task list on my iTouch. I did not already have a Google task list but since your app syncs with it, I set one up. Since my primary need is for task list manipulation on the device rather than in the cloud, I would like the ability to create lists in GeeTasks. Since I did not see a way of doing that, I set up some spare lists in Google tasks so they'd be available in GeeTasks when I want to start a new list. That's when I realized that there seems to be no way to rename lists in GeeTasks.
Since I'm already commenting, I'll add my support to the following already requested features:
collapsing subtasks and
hiding/showing completed tasks.

Lastly, the response that I read about how upgrades will be handled left me wondering whether I would find out when a feature that I'm waiting for is released. This is a very nice app with potential to be even better. I'd buy the pro version now if it meant I'd automatically get all updates.

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Unfold Newbie comments by Kathylynn (guest), 1266800646|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1266805885|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hi Kathylynn!

GeeTasks was initially intended for people who have to have their Google Tasks on the go, hence lack of some basic features. Now that I am working on expanding it into fully-fledged tasks app I will be adding some of those features and creating/renaming tasks is the next thing on my own to-do list.

I still have not figured out how to gracefully collapse-expand subtasks, so this will remain on the back-burner for now, but I am thinking about it so something will come out.
As to hiding completed tasks, I have an idea in mind - make it so that completed tasks automatically move into a designated "archive" task list where they would not be getting in the way. As you may have seen in my other comments there are technical problems with replicating google's behavior exactly, so I will try to do the next best thing.

To your last point: when there are more differences between GeeTasks and GeeTasks Pro I will be sure to advertise the difference in the app itself. I also plan to add upgrade options so that GeeTasks Standard can be upgraded into Pro right within the app itself. I will also add in-app tutorial to make sure people get the most out of their purchase.

Thanks for stopping by.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1266805885|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Kathylynn (guest) 1266811252|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That all sounds good.

My desire to use the app independent of the cloud is due to the fact that my device is only online when there's wifi —not your
primary user profile but still a sizable market.

I do usability for my day job, so if you have usability concerns about collapsing subtasks, you're welcome to use me as a sounding board
with no obligations.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Kathylynn (guest), 1266811252|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1266824776|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Actually it does fall into my primary user profile. I wrote GeeTasks for people who want to have their tasks always available to them in the most convenient way possible given their situation. This means when you're at your computer you can use the big screen and large keyboard to manage tasks as efficiently as it gets. If you're near someone else's computer (or even different computer of yours) you can still do pretty much the same things - hence the choice of a cloud-based tasks app. When you are away from computer you can get your tasks on your portable computer - iPhone or iPod touch. If there is network connection you will get to see and edit the freshest copy of your data, and if there is no network (poor cellular coverage or lack of WiFi for iTouch) you get the latest available data and your changes are saved until you get back online.

I think if you ever forget your iPod Touch at home (or the other way around - at work) you will appreciate your data being omnipresent - you won't have to think about forgetting it. I find it liberating.

Anyways, at least that's what I'm telling myself. The great vision for my fledgling business. :-)

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1266824776|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1266826078|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So, back to usability of collapsing subtasks:

My biggest worry is that someone will collapse their subtasks and forget about it. Quite frequently I get reports form people who sort tasks by due date, then try to rearrange task manually and can't figure out why it won't work (you can either sort manually or have the system sort thing for you - you can't have both!). For ever person who complains there is a dozen who don't - most people do not expect support for a $3 app so they leave in frustration, and I don't want that to happen.

Jesse suggested a couple of ideas here - make the root task of a collapsed group visually "fatter": taller, or maybe heavier with color or font size, or have little pieces of paper sticking out from underneath. Something should pique people's attention. Oh, I just had a profound idea - maybe employ animation to have little pieces of paper sticking out and hiding back? Or maybe I will just add whole pseudo-subtask which says "tap me to see the other 20 subtasks in here…

My second worry is activation of collapse/expand action. Tap is already reserved for opening the details pane. It's tempting to use swipe - swipe left to collapse, swipe right to expand. However swipe is generally reserved for deleting. Not sure how upset people will be if I make deleting things harder. Another option is use tap-and-hold to toggle collapse/expand, but this sort of conflicts with another use I had in mind for tap-and-hold: cut-copy-paste. Yet another option is to add a separate control, an arrow, on the right-hand side which would point sideways or downwards and could be tapped to collapse/expand.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1266826078|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Kathylynn (guest) 1266834362|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think that both the fact that a task is collapsed and the means of collapsing/expanding should be visual (i.e. using a gesture alone to collapse/expand will make that feature feel hidden, and just because users stumble onto that gesture to collapse doesn't mean they'll notice what they did or remember what they did days later when they want to undo it). In the interest of simplicity (and not cluttering up the screen) it'd be nice to have the same visual element indicate collapsed and expandable and another state of that same visual element indicate collapsible. The sideways/downwards arrow can manage this nicely, though having it to the left of the task makes its use more intuitive, probably because it suggests a well known pattern, the tree control (think Windows file explorer). To make the use even more obvious, you could use a + or - within a box instead of the arrow. Having either of these to the left of the associated task name, involve moving all task names to the right so that the visual indicator stands out and the hierarchical appearance is preserved. In usability testing, I've found people very willing to experiment by clicking on a boxed +/- and most had an accurate expectation of what would happen. We've also used stylized arrows (elongated triangle within a circle); they were well understood when they were noticed, but in our case they were noticed less readily because they were embedded within a header image of a collapsible/expandable panel.

Animation will attract attention but it also tends to annoy. (At a recent usability conference, attendees facetiously wore buttons that read 'make it blink').

The suggestions of increasing the height or bolding, will be learnable but they don't give the visual affordance of clickability to the new user. Adding an explicit tap line will be understandable to the newbie, but all of these three ideas will garner comments from frequent users about the loss of usable real estate. For that matter, the arrow and boxed +/- would also reduce real estate but the amount will be obvious and small (one char per line, or two if followed by a space) rather than a whole line or an indeterminate amount such as with bolding.

Color (for the 92% who see it) and little pieces of paper underneath would be visually obvious and good for those who already know what they mean and would not reduce real estate. They only lack the visual affordance of clickability. I'm not sure whether color would increase visual complexity too much, my hunch is it wouldn't if you stuck to only two colors.

Once you add collapse/expand, people will have different preferred default behavior (all expanded, all collapsed, or however they last left it).

I'm glad that you're concerned about usability; your app's usability is currently good but on a small screen, every addition makes a difference. Thanks for the chance to weigh in.

Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Kathylynn (guest), 1266834362|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1266957403|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

attendees facetiously wore buttons that read 'make it blink' Lol. I guess we all go through this, don't we. To be more accurate I wanted to make it animated until the user clicked it a few times, after which I would assume they figured it out and stop annoying them.

What you say makes a lot of sense intuitively and it seems to be backed by your experience is likely true.

There are few problems with the boxed +/-. Placing it on the left will make it close to the checkbox, and on the touch-screen acuracy of taps is very low. The problem is aggravated by the fact that one button only affects view of the data (collapse/expand) while another affects the data itself - this will be very jarring. The large empty area around the checkbox is not accidental - the entirety of it belongs to the checbox and invokes the chec/uncheck action. The buttons would have to be spaced quite far away from each other, and that would consume space, unless the space is used for text - like the task's title. In other words, they would need to be on the different sides of the screen :-) I could move the checkbox to the right but I'm afraid this will cause a revolt, because that's pretty much a universal convention by now to have checkboxes on the left. Google's web site has checkboxes on the left as well. the +/- only ever makes sense on the left, so guess my best option is to place a triangle on the right. Hence why I brought it up.

The other problem is aesthetic - I am trying to minimize the number of distinct visual elements on the screen and it doesn't come easy. I just had a little victory by removing the right-pointing arrow as I am working to improve the layout of the task list. Here's the latest:
20100223-q7qktjh96mm93sy4su7dssq2xb.png 20100223-x2rmj75uam5nqyu6x7wytyk1jp.png

In this design user is allowed to adjust the height of the task cell, and so the due date may start creeping up on the task title. Therefore the due date was moved to the right where it encroaches on the last letters of the text, since if it were on the left it would encroach on the middle of the text.

If we forget about the due date for a moment the space on the right is ideally suited for the arrow control… decisions, decisions.

I am going to release a beta with these changes today and I would like to get your input on it. If you send send me an email I will include you in the program.

Last edited on 1266957978|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By Denis Altudov + Show more
Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1266957403|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Dan Newman (guest) 1267563767|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Here's another thought on this topic from another new purchaser: Why not replace the checkbox with some sort of collapse/expand indicator? There's be no reason to check the top-level task until all the subtasks had been completed, so that checkbox doesn't need to be visible until that point.

Just a thought.

Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Dan Newman (guest), 1267563767|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1267569896|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hi, Dan.

I feel that people would want to collapse/expand even a task that has all subtasks done in it.

Kathy and I discussed this in private and came to the conclusion that the right solution here will be to show collapse/expand triangles on the right-hand side pointing inwards when collapsed and downwards when expanded. Tapping the arrow will toggle the event.

Should I take your comment as a sign of interest in this feature? I am currently not planning to start working on it for another 8 weeks or so. There are things I planned to do before then…

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1267569896|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Jesse (guest) 1267731185|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Couple quick comments.

1. I could see right side disclosure triangles working well. I found this when I was looking up how other iPhone developers have tried to approach hierarchical lists. I forget why I didn't go that way in a mockup I sent Denis, but it sounds good to me now.

2. My biggest feature request *by far* is changing the order of "next" task entries, so that the new task gets added beneath the old one. I think I mentioned this before but didn't followup with my reason. Basically it fits with how I think. When I'm doing a braindump, I'll tend to think of broader tasks and then break them down into smaller more immediate subtasks. In the current system, I always end up reordering my "quick entry" tasks, which sort of defeats the purpose. Going from top to bottom would also be consistent with how Google Tasks does it online, and really with the general convention for adding new items to a list. Please at least make this an option.

3. Kind of sort of related, my second biggest feature request would be allowing the user to select an insertion point for new entries before entering them. The question of course is what the interface for this would look like. I wonder if this might be a place where you could take advantage of the fact that "create a new task" already is its own row before a task gets added. It's a sort of special "pre-row". What if there was some way of moving that row to *where* you wanted to add the new task? Just the seed of an idea.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Jesse (guest), 1267731185|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1267743265|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

1. Yeah, that's what I had in mind.
2. I think you're right, I'm not sure when I can get to it - right now I'm buy with "add new list". I made a note of it, but feel free to ping me again after "add new list" is over.
3. Don't know about that, dragging the insertion target before inserting anything is as much work as inserting and then dragging. What do we gain here again? I get the gist of your request - you want a quicker way of adding tasks when you need them rather than always at the top. I'll keep that in mind, maybe an idea will come to me.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1267743265|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Jesse (guest) 1267757009|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

1 & 2. Cool.
3. The difference is, again, with multi-entry, "next" mode. I want to make a shopping list, within a larger list. If I go do the quick entry thing with "tomatoes" "milk" "chips" etc, I'm left with a bunch of disconnected tasks at the top. But I don't want them to be at the top… so I have to manually drag and drop them each onto a super-task, one by one, *then* drag that super-task down to where I want them.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Jesse (guest), 1267757009|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1267760050|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok. A workaround for the time being:

  • create task "milk"
  • create task "chips"
  • create task "shopping list". it is now at the very top
  • slide all other created tasks one notch to the right
  • drag "shopping list" where you want it to be
Last edited on 1267760088|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover By Denis Altudov + Show more
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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1267760050|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Geoff (guest) 1268073691|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think I understand what Jesse is asking for. It would be nice to be able to create sub-tasks without needing to drag them into being sub-tasks after they are created. If you look at the header task as being a project, your workaround isn't really very practical. General project development is to have the project named and then add sub-tasks as they become apparent. When only adding one or two, dragging isn't that big a deal. When adding twenty, it becomes a much bigger issue.

I, too, look forward to the ability to collapse sub-tasks, but, as it seems the priority is on your list, my higher priority is the creation of lists.

I look forward to seeing this app develop. I'll do my best to provide you with good feedback as I'm working with it.

Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Geoff (guest), 1268073691|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1268075630|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Yeah I understood it the same way too. I'll find a way to make it better.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1268075630|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Jesse (guest) 1272542647|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"2. I think you're right, I'm not sure when I can get to it - right now I'm buy with "add new list". I made a note of it, but feel free to ping me again after "add new list" is over."

Ping! I know you still have your hands full, but this would make my life oh-so-very-much better. :)

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Jesse (guest), 1272542647|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1272646029|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ok, ok. I'll get right to it. Geez. :-)

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1272646029|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I want to see all my lists
Jay (guest) 1269170191|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It is frustrating to go through different folders to see all my task lists.
Even if this is impossible with Google Calendar Tasks, would it be possible with your App?
Thanks.
Jay

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Unfold I want to see all my lists by Jay (guest), 1269170191|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: I want to see all my lists
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1269183010|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hello Jay.

If you're always looking at all tasks, why not put them into the same list? Serious question - I want to understand you better.

For what it's worth, I am planning to add a meta-list called "All Due Tasks", which will show all tasks with due dates regardless of their list. Given that people who need this type of stuff typically have large number of tasks it will not show tasks without due dates to avoid information overload.

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Unfold Re: I want to see all my lists by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1269183010|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
soledad (guest) 1269330816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hello Denis,

I keeping popping by this site weekly to check on the status of the "All Due Tasks" feature. Since you asked someone why they won't put all their tasks into one list, I thought I'd offer why I don't which might help you understand how at least one person uses GeeTasks (I'm now using GeeTasksPro).

I have 13 lists set up, which more or less divides up the different roles in my life (2 for different aspects of my business, 3 for different project, others for family/household stuff, etc. One is my grocery list, which I check and uncheck each time I need to go to the grocery store - this has been great for quickly thinking of what I need and not having to type in a new item each time.

I have approximately 165 tasks split between these different lists. One night per week I go through my task lists and give due dates to those with no date based on what I need to/can do this week. This week I have 34 tasks due and those are split between 5 lists. I don't like flipping through each list several times a day (I might have 10 tasks from 4 lists on one day, 5 tasks on 5 lists the next, for example). I find the weekly process of assigning dates to tasks easy, because of the way I've divided them into different lists. However, If I were to compile all the tasks onto one list, I would find it very cumbersome to go through all 165 tasks each week. I also like to view them all on one list, for example during work hours when I'm focussed on one project, I have that list open.

I hope that helps.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by soledad (guest), 1269330816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1269360507|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That's a fantastic description, thanks very much. I hope that task count on the right-hand side of the list of lists helps you a little bit with finding which task are due today, at least until the "all due tasks" is done.

How do you find performance with 165 tasks by the way?

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1269360507|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Mike (guest) 1269362538|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Denis - When do you think the "all due task list" will be implemented? Is it possible to add another task count for the icon and pick up what is due in 7 days or earlier?

Performance is good with 150-160 items.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Mike (guest), 1269362538|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
Denis AltudovDenis Altudov 1269396926|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

There can be only one badge on the app icon… Though if you're asking for another "7 day" option, sure I can do that. But only if you explain why you need that. :-) I have added it to my own to-do list.

I don't have a timeline for "all due tasks". Right now I'm finishing the create/update/delete lists but after I'm done I will need to take a break of sorts. Unfortunately the sales are falling and I need to get them back up if I am to continue with this endeavor. Only adding features doesn't suffice, so I plan to spend some time on marketing efforts to get the word out and increase the sales again. In other words I need to spend a few weeks doing things which aren't helpful to anyone who is reading this. Sorry, guys.

There are couple of things I plan to do:

  1. Encourage people to write reviews about the app from within the app itself, and for each new version. This is the single biggest thing that helps. Right now there are only two reviews for the current version of GeeTasks and zero reviews for the current version of GeeTasksPro. This is very bad for sales. Yet there are tons of people who use GeeTasks all the time - there must be a way to get a few reviews every now and again.
  2. Create a free version of the app - I heard "try before you buy" gives a very noticeable boost in sales.
  3. Add demo videos and help/tutorials within the app. You will see that very soon on the very next Beta due in a day or two. This should reduce the number of confused people who leave bad reviews.

So that's where we stand. As far as functionality is concerned, the next things are the "all due tasks" super-list and support for a multiple accounts.

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by Denis AltudovDenis Altudov, 1269396926|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Newbie comments
soledad (guest) 1269390027|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Performance is great and I do find the count helpful, so even when I'm at home and using Google Calendar on my computer, I'll still refer to GeeTasks on my ipod to see the task lists because of the count.

Thanks

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Unfold Re: Newbie comments by soledad (guest), 1269390027|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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